Discussion:
Wasps record coaching manual - Spoiler: London Wasps vs Cardiff Blues
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Martyn Winters
2005-10-07 20:32:51 UTC
Permalink
There's no shame in losing to a better side, but capitulation of the
kind we saw in the first half is unacceptable.

Wasps were better than the Blues in all departments. When I say that, I
mean they did what they were supposed to do and did it in a more
efficient manner than their opposite numbers. Man for man, they aren't
any better, but as a team they are streets ahead. They out muscled the
Cardiff scum, got to the breakdown quicker, defended beyond Cardiff's
gain line, made fewer errors, rarely turned over possession, and made
the simple things count. They had moments of brilliance, like the pass
off the floor by Sackey, the rush into Andy Powell's arms by one of the
Wasps forwards giving them a penalty for taking out a man off the ball,
the running of O'Connor, but it was their team work, their rush defence
and their efficiency that was really outstanding.

To be frank, it was a demonstration by Cardiff in how not to play a
match in High Wycombe. They just had no idea what to do. The forwards
were simply outclassed and what little possession they had was
squandered by Ryan Powell and Nicky Robinson. Robinson was having one of
his off days - sometimes he's class, other times, he looks so ponderous
that I half expect to see him wearing a straw hat. Today, he was wearing
the hat. Ryan Powell is not good enough for this level of competition
and I have no idea why Dai Young persists in playing him. More
especially, I wonder why he's being played when there is a class number
nine on the bench in the form of Mike Phillips. The only rotation I want
to see in relation to Powell is the turnstile going round as he trudges
out of the Arms Park for good. Phillips would have presented a physical
challenge to Dawson, and made room for Robinson to operate. That Young
chose to play Powell is indicative of brain cramp or worse.

It is not a coincidence that Cardiff managed to score their tries after
Phillips came on for Powell. They looked a different side. Cardiff gave
a dumb-arse try away with ten minutes to go, but apart from that, they
looked a much better outfit once Powell had left the park and for twenty
minutes they were the better side. The problem was the other sixty.

The Wasps were good value for their 40-19 win, it could have been worse
had they capitalised on all their first half possession, and Cardiff
Blues now know how far they have to travel to swim with the big fish in
Europe.

For Cardiff to qualify for the knockout, Saracens have to win at Wasps
and Cardiff have to win at London Irish. There is no chance of that
happening. Wasps are so far ahead of anything on offer in English rugby
they will tear the Saracens apart. So that's one of the groups sorted out.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
Rob Stradling
2005-10-07 20:56:58 UTC
Permalink
They out muscled the Cardiff scum,
I know it was a typo, mate, but don't *you* start! :-)

Got that drink yet?
Martyn Winters
2005-10-07 21:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Stradling
They out muscled the Cardiff scum,
I know it was a typo, mate, but don't *you* start! :-)
Got that drink yet?
What makes you think that was a typo? I'm just about to make my way out
to the M4 with an M15 and a night scope. I reckon that even travelling
at upwards of 70 mph, the shadowy figure of Peter the Piemaker will be
an easy target. Come to think of it, he IS a shadowy figure isn't he?
I've never noticed before, but if anyone has "something of the night"
about them, it's Chairman Pete. They say there have been several
instances of disappeances in Bedwas down the years - and he did make his
fortune making pies.... I suddenly feel a little queasy..
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
didgerman
2005-10-07 21:25:46 UTC
Permalink
There's no shame in losing to a better side, but capitulation of the kind
we saw in the first half is unacceptable.
Wasps were better than the Blues in all departments. When I say that, I
mean they did what they were supposed to do and did it in a more efficient
manner than their opposite numbers. Man for man, they aren't any better,
Now, you know that's bullshit, none of them would get in the Jasper's team
after that, and you know it.

but as a team they are streets ahead. They out muscled the
Cardiff scum, got to the breakdown quicker, defended beyond Cardiff's gain
line, made fewer errors, rarely turned over possession, and made the
simple things count. They had moments of brilliance, like the pass off the
floor by Sackey, the rush into Andy Powell's arms by one of the Wasps
forwards giving them a penalty for taking out a man off the ball, the
running of O'Connor, but it was their team work, their rush defence and
their efficiency that was really outstanding.
They were also unlucky to be pinged for offside, when really the ref' was
too busy flapping his gums to keep up with the game.
To be frank, it was a demonstration by Cardiff in how not to play a match
in High Wycombe. They just had no idea what to do. The forwards were
simply outclassed and what little possession they had was squandered by
Ryan Powell and Nicky Robinson. Robinson was having one of his off days -
sometimes he's class, other times, he looks so ponderous that I half
expect to see him wearing a straw hat. Today, he was wearing the hat. Ryan
Powell is not good enough for this level of competition and I have no idea
why Dai Young persists in playing him. More especially, I wonder why he's
being played when there is a class number nine on the bench in the form of
Mike Phillips. The only rotation I want to see in relation to Powell is
the turnstile going round as he trudges out of the Arms Park for good.
Phillips would have presented a physical challenge to Dawson, and made
room for Robinson to operate. That Young chose to play Powell is
indicative of brain cramp or worse.
Tinkering, is not enough.
It is not a coincidence that Cardiff managed to score their tries after
Phillips came on for Powell. They looked a different side. Cardiff gave a
dumb-arse try away with ten minutes to go, but apart from that, they
looked a much better outfit once Powell had left the park and for twenty
minutes they were the better side. The problem was the other sixty.
The Wasps were good value for their 40-19 win, it could have been worse
had they capitalised on all their first half possession, and Cardiff Blues
now know how far they have to travel to swim with the big fish in Europe.
For Cardiff to qualify for the knockout, Saracens have to win at Wasps and
Cardiff have to win at London Irish. There is no chance of that happening.
Wasps are so far ahead of anything on offer in English rugby they will
tear the Saracens apart. So that's one of the groups sorted out.
--
Martyn
You may or may not recall that I used to go to watch Cardiff, back in the
day....
I was slightly torn by my loyalties this evening, but I have to say, Cardiff
were worse than Rueben Thorne's all time invitation 15, and they deserved
all they got for fucking about like that. As a current fan of Glasgow
Worriers, I know they can do better, but probably not this season.
**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
Sadly after this evening, I'm only waiting for the France game......
Martyn Winters
2005-10-07 21:33:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by didgerman
Post by Martyn Winters
**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
Sadly after this evening, I'm only waiting for the France game......
Two things to remember here, Didge: Cardiff are not Wales and Dai Young
isn't Captain Haddock.

Wasps are probably the best team in the UK *at home*, but that isn't a
reflection of the general state of English rugby, just Wasps rugby. As
for man for man - I'd take Shanklin, both the Robinsons, Mike Phillips,
Sidoli, Deiniol Jones, Rhys Williams, Czecaj, and John Yapp over their
opposite numbers any day. Martyn Williams had a standard first day back,
just like Dallaglio, but on another day, he would match O'Connor.

The real difference today was the coaching. Wasps have a coaching team,
Cardiff have David Young and Robert Howley, both of whom made careers
out of displaying their respective IQs on the back of their shirts.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
Rob Stradling
2005-10-07 23:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
The real difference today was the coaching. Wasps have a coaching team,
Cardiff have David Young and Robert Howley, both of whom made careers
out of displaying their respective IQs on the back of their shirts.
Ouch. A bit harsh on Rob, I'd have said...

I'm not so sure I'd pick so many Blues in my Wasps/Blues XV, but the
point holds that Wasps are a team even greater than the sum of their
considerable parts, whereas the Blues are not as good a team as [Martyn
Williams / Tom Shanklin / John Yapp]* on his own. It's hard to imagine
them floundering the way they do if coached by Ian McGeechan.



(* Take your pick!)
Martyn Winters
2005-10-08 08:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob Stradling
Post by Martyn Winters
The real difference today was the coaching. Wasps have a coaching
team, Cardiff have David Young and Robert Howley, both of whom made
careers out of displaying their respective IQs on the back of their
shirts.
Ouch. A bit harsh on Rob, I'd have said...
I'm not so sure I'd pick so many Blues in my Wasps/Blues XV, but the
point holds that Wasps are a team even greater than the sum of their
considerable parts, whereas the Blues are not as good a team as [Martyn
Williams / Tom Shanklin / John Yapp]* on his own. It's hard to imagine
them floundering the way they do if coached by Ian McGeechan.
Actually, it's probably a bit harsh on Dai, but Rob IS challenged in the
grey matter department. IMO of course. Brilliant number 9 though, which
makes the choice of Ryan "completely and utterly useless" Powell to play
the most important game of the season so far, odd.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
mnb
2005-10-08 12:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Rob Stradling
Post by Martyn Winters
The real difference today was the coaching. Wasps have a coaching
team, Cardiff have David Young and Robert Howley, both of whom made
careers out of displaying their respective IQs on the back of their
shirts.
Ouch. A bit harsh on Rob, I'd have said...
I'm not so sure I'd pick so many Blues in my Wasps/Blues XV, but the
point holds that Wasps are a team even greater than the sum of their
considerable parts, whereas the Blues are not as good a team as
[Martyn Williams / Tom Shanklin / John Yapp]* on his own. It's hard to
imagine them floundering the way they do if coached by Ian McGeechan.
Actually, it's probably a bit harsh on Dai, but Rob IS challenged in the
grey matter department. IMO of course. Brilliant number 9 though, which
makes the choice of Ryan "completely and utterly useless" Powell to play
the most important game of the season so far, odd.
The point that the Blues can't avoid is their ongoing non-performance
since the earliest days of professionalism when Cardiff were a European
heavyweight. They have all of the advantages and none of the
disadvantages of the other Welsh regions. What do they do to solve
their problems? Rent Jonah. Maybe that's the problem.
Martyn Winters
2005-10-08 18:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by mnb
The point that the Blues can't avoid is their ongoing non-performance
since the earliest days of professionalism when Cardiff were a European
heavyweight. They have all of the advantages and none of the
disadvantages of the other Welsh regions. What do they do to solve
their problems? Rent Jonah. Maybe that's the problem.
Complete tosh. If Cardiff "rented" as many foreigners as the Dragons or
Llanelli, you might have an argument. They certainly don't "rent" as
many foreigners as Wasps or indeed most of the Guinness Prem teams. As
for the Ospreys, the only reason they don't "rent" loads of foreigners
is they are made up of two teams, plus the choice pick of the Financial
Failures, err sorry, the Warriors.

The problem with the Blues and Cardiff RFC before them is they don't
have experienced coaches and the senior management are both worthless
and gutless.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
John Hill
2005-10-10 08:26:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:03:56 GMT, Martyn Winters
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by mnb
The point that the Blues can't avoid is their ongoing non-performance
since the earliest days of professionalism when Cardiff were a European
heavyweight. They have all of the advantages and none of the
disadvantages of the other Welsh regions. What do they do to solve
their problems? Rent Jonah. Maybe that's the problem.
Complete tosh. If Cardiff "rented" as many foreigners as the Dragons or
Llanelli, you might have an argument. They certainly don't "rent" as
many foreigners as Wasps or indeed most of the Guinness Prem teams. As
for the Ospreys, the only reason they don't "rent" loads of foreigners
is they are made up of two teams, plus the choice pick of the Financial
Failures, err sorry, the Warriors.
Which Foreigners were you thinking of Wasps as renting. (You can't
include MvG - he's English now)

JH
Post by Martyn Winters
The problem with the Blues and Cardiff RFC before them is they don't
have experienced coaches and the senior management are both worthless
and gutless.
--
Martyn
Ben L
2005-10-10 13:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hill
On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 18:03:56 GMT, Martyn Winters
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by mnb
The point that the Blues can't avoid is their ongoing non-performance
since the earliest days of professionalism when Cardiff were a European
heavyweight. They have all of the advantages and none of the
disadvantages of the other Welsh regions. What do they do to solve
their problems? Rent Jonah. Maybe that's the problem.
Complete tosh. If Cardiff "rented" as many foreigners as the Dragons or
Llanelli, you might have an argument. They certainly don't "rent" as
many foreigners as Wasps or indeed most of the Guinness Prem teams. As
for the Ospreys, the only reason they don't "rent" loads of foreigners
is they are made up of two teams, plus the choice pick of the Financial
Failures, err sorry, the Warriors.
Which Foreigners were you thinking of Wasps as renting. (You can't
include MvG - he's English now)
It's balls. Sarries or Northampton and he might have a point. Wasps
have Ibanez and O'Connor - and O'Connor is a long termer who has come
on leaps and bounds since leaving Ireland.

The bedrock of Wasps' success is getting phenomenal amounts of value
out of English players like Payne, Birkett, Shaw, Richards, Dawson,
Voyce, Volley, Waters, Worsley and Erinle - players who are not quites,
"has beens" or who can't perform internationally as well as they do for
club.
John Hill
2005-10-10 13:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hill
hich Foreigners were you thinking of Wasps as renting. (You can't
Post by John Hill
include MvG - he's English now)
It's balls. Sarries or Northampton and he might have a point. Wasps
have Ibanez and O'Connor - and O'Connor is a long termer who has come
on leaps and bounds since leaving Ireland.
The bedrock of Wasps' success is getting phenomenal amounts of value
out of English players like Payne, Birkett, Shaw, Richards, Dawson,
Voyce, Volley, Waters, Worsley and Erinle - players who are not quites,
"has beens" or who can't perform internationally as well as they do for
club.
I know. Still prejudice and sour grapes are not very pleasant

JH
Martyn Winters
2005-10-11 20:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hill
I know. Still prejudice and sour grapes are not very pleasant
Being an ignoramus is far worse, coach.

Colin Allen
Ian Jones
Trevor Leota
Kenny Logan
Peter Bracken
Rob Hoadley
Raphael Ibanez
Johnny O'Connor
Eoin Reddan
Jeremy Staunton
David Van Eyk
Mark Van Gisbergen (they still got him from another country)
Matt Priscott
Rob Howley
Thom Evans
Craig Dowd
Stuart Abbott (oh yes he is... he's a Jarpie)
Harvey Biljon
Dafydd Lewis
Darren Molloy

Apart from that lot, if you took Millfield School out of the equation,
they'd be totally screwed. So, if they're not foreigners they're bloody
public schoolboys. Jeez.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
The Green Phantom
2005-10-11 20:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by John Hill
I know. Still prejudice and sour grapes are not very pleasant
Being an ignoramus is far worse, coach.
Colin Allen
Ian Jones
Trevor Leota
Kenny Logan
Peter Bracken
Rob Hoadley
Raphael Ibanez
Johnny O'Connor
Eoin Reddan
Jeremy Staunton
David Van Eyk
Mark Van Gisbergen (they still got him from another country)
Matt Priscott
Rob Howley
Thom Evans
Craig Dowd
Stuart Abbott (oh yes he is... he's a Jarpie)
Harvey Biljon
Dafydd Lewis
Darren Molloy
Apart from that lot, if you took Millfield School out of the equation,
they'd be totally screwed. So, if they're not foreigners they're bloody
public schoolboys. Jeez.
ROTFL

regards

The Green Phantom
Martyn Winters
2005-10-11 21:04:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Green Phantom
ROTFL
regards
The Green Phantom
TY TY TY

;-)
Ben L
2005-10-11 22:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by John Hill
I know. Still prejudice and sour grapes are not very pleasant
Being an ignoramus is far worse, coach.
You can see Wasps' stance here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/4174930.stm

"Wasps won last year's Premiership final with a team of 14 English
players"

You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.

Most of the high profile "foreigners" like Howley and Leota and Logan,
were long term members of the club rather than glamour signings or
pension seekers.
Post by Martyn Winters
Colin Allen
Ian Jones
Trevor Leota
Kenny Logan
Peter Bracken
Rob Hoadley
Rented from who, exactly? He was born in Hammersmith.
Post by Martyn Winters
Raphael Ibanez
Johnny O'Connor
Eoin Reddan
Jeremy Staunton
David Van Eyk
Mark Van Gisbergen (they still got him from another country)
Matt Priscott
Rob Howley
Thom Evans
Rented from who? He was Wasps academy and England qualified.
Post by Martyn Winters
Craig Dowd
Stuart Abbott (oh yes he is... he's a Jarpie)
Harvey Biljon
Dafydd Lewis
Darren Molloy
Martyn Winters
2005-10-12 13:44:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.
Two out twenty and one of them played for Ireland. Does that mean the
basis of your argument to counter my proposition that Cardiff don't
hire many foreigners is that one of the players out of twenty from the
last three seasons is English, and his name is Thom Evans.
Ben L
2005-10-14 09:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.
Two out twenty and one of them played for Ireland. Does that mean the
basis of your argument to counter my proposition that Cardiff don't
hire many foreigners
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Post by Martyn Winters
is that one of the players out of twenty from the
last three seasons is English, and his name is Thom Evans.
Eh?

What you've shown about Wasps is that they have, and have had, foreign
players - a distinct minorityn within their squad of 30+ players, and a
clear minority within their 1st team squad. Hardly a groundbreaking
finding.

I'm not sure how your logic works, though. Abbott is born in SA but
plays for England = foreign. Hoadley is born, plays and lives in
England but = foreign?
Martyn Winters
2005-10-14 22:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.
Two out twenty and one of them played for Ireland. Does that mean the
basis of your argument to counter my proposition that Cardiff don't
hire many foreigners
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Post by Martyn Winters
is that one of the players out of twenty from the
last three seasons is English, and his name is Thom Evans.
Eh?
What you've shown about Wasps is that they have, and have had, foreign
players - a distinct minorityn within their squad of 30+ players, and a
clear minority within their 1st team squad. Hardly a groundbreaking
finding.
All the players quoted were first team squad players.
Post by Ben L
I'm not sure how your logic works, though. Abbott is born in SA but
plays for England = foreign. Hoadley is born, plays and lives in
England but = foreign?
18 players in 3 years is a sizeable minority by any standard. My
definition of foreign is simple: anyone who was born out of the country,
or who plays for another nation.
Post by Ben L
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Which was the whole point of the discussion, except you chose to divert
it on to Wasps.

Just in case you forgot, the substance of the argument is that one
poster contended that Cardiff were experiencing problems and the reason
for that is they chose to employ a foreign player. This has history with
which (perhaps) you're not familiar. One of the fondest myths of Valleys
rugby is that Cardiff and latterly the Blues are cheque book charlies
who always attempt to buy themselves out of trouble by importing
players. My contention is that Cardiff are just one of the pack, who buy
players from abroad in a similar fashion to other teams. I pointed out a
few examples, one of whom was Wasps. I believe this was where you came
in bristling with indignation because you thought Wasps had been
slighted and tried to make a case for Wasps being a purely Aryan
Englander team. I pointed out the error of your contention. This is a
side issue.

The substance of my argument is that Cardiff's players are good players.
They demonstrated that a couple of weeks ago by giving Saracens a
spanking. That they, in turn, should receive a similar spanking from
Wasps is not a demonstration of the error of their ways in employing
foreign players, far from it, the problem, and this is the crux of my
argument, not the racial or national purity of the English Champions,
the crux is, they are badly coached. The team of Young, Howley et al are
inexperienced and lacking in the qualities necessary to blend a team of
talented, young rugby players into a team capable of competing with the
very best in British rugby on a consistent basis.
Ben L
2005-10-16 08:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.
Two out twenty and one of them played for Ireland. Does that mean the
basis of your argument to counter my proposition that Cardiff don't
hire many foreigners
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Post by Martyn Winters
is that one of the players out of twenty from the
last three seasons is English, and his name is Thom Evans.
Eh?
What you've shown about Wasps is that they have, and have had, foreign
players - a distinct minorityn within their squad of 30+ players, and a
clear minority within their 1st team squad. Hardly a groundbreaking
finding.
All the players quoted were first team squad players.
Post by Ben L
I'm not sure how your logic works, though. Abbott is born in SA but
plays for England = foreign. Hoadley is born, plays and lives in
England but = foreign?
18 players in 3 years is a sizeable minority by any standard. My
definition of foreign is simple: anyone who was born out of the country,
or who plays for another nation.
You've missed the point. Either Stuart Abbott is English because he
plays for England, or he is south African because he was born and his
early years there. Similarly either Hoadley is English for the same
reasons that Abbott is South African or he isn't.

Make your mind up on what a foreign player is. You can't have it both
ways without being illogical and not making sense.
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Which was the whole point of the discussion, except you chose to divert
it on to Wasps.
Would that be me diverting it by magically getting you to write:

"They certainly don't "rent" as
many foreigners as Wasps or indeed most of the Guinness Prem teams"
Martyn Winters
2005-10-16 21:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
You've really had to scrape the barrel with that lot, Martyn. Some of
them are English and a large chunk of them don't play for the club any
more and haven't done for a season or two.
Two out twenty and one of them played for Ireland. Does that mean the
basis of your argument to counter my proposition that Cardiff don't
hire many foreigners
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Post by Martyn Winters
is that one of the players out of twenty from the
last three seasons is English, and his name is Thom Evans.
Eh?
What you've shown about Wasps is that they have, and have had, foreign
players - a distinct minorityn within their squad of 30+ players, and a
clear minority within their 1st team squad. Hardly a groundbreaking
finding.
All the players quoted were first team squad players.
Post by Ben L
I'm not sure how your logic works, though. Abbott is born in SA but
plays for England = foreign. Hoadley is born, plays and lives in
England but = foreign?
18 players in 3 years is a sizeable minority by any standard. My
definition of foreign is simple: anyone who was born out of the country,
or who plays for another nation.
You've missed the point. Either Stuart Abbott is English because he
plays for England, or he is south African because he was born and his
early years there. Similarly either Hoadley is English for the same
reasons that Abbott is South African or he isn't.
Make your mind up on what a foreign player is. You can't have it both
ways without being illogical and not making sense.
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Well I've not talked about Cardiff, have I?
Which was the whole point of the discussion, except you chose to divert
it on to Wasps.
"They certainly don't "rent" as
many foreigners as Wasps or indeed most of the Guinness Prem teams"
An aside, as you well know. The main thrust of my argument was as I
pointed out earlier. Anyway, I proved my point vis a vis Wasps.
--
Martyn

**Can't wait for Twickenham '06**
Martyn Winters
2005-10-16 22:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
You've missed the point. Either Stuart Abbott is English because he
plays for England, or he is south African because he was born and his
early years there. Similarly either Hoadley is English for the same
reasons that Abbott is South African or he isn't.
Make your mind up on what a foreign player is. You can't have it both
ways without being illogical and not making sense.
On the contrary, it is perfectly logical to say that a foreign player
can be either someone not born in a country, OR someone who plays for
another country. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Abbott is a foreigner in England because he was born elsewhere.

Hoadley is a foreign player in England because he playes for another
country.

The two statements are independent of necessity, but it does not
indicate any logical inconsistency. Similarly, Colin Charvis is a
foreigner in Wales because he was born elsewhere, but equally he is now
a foreign player in England because he plays for Wales.
Ben L
2005-10-17 13:26:54 UTC
Permalink
Martyn Winters wrote:
<snip>
Post by Martyn Winters
An aside, as you well know. The main thrust of my argument was as I
pointed out earlier. Anyway, I proved my point vis a vis Wasps.
Not really. From the Cardiff website, 9 players were born outside Wales
- Dewdney, Lomu, Stcherbina, Warren, Baugh, Schubert, Molitika, Rush,
Shanklin.

Shanklin is Welsh-qualified. The rest all had international caps before
coming to Cardiff.

Wasps currently have 8 - Ibanez, Bracken, O'Connor, Reddan, Van Eyk,
Staunton, Van Gisbergen, Abbott.

2 of those are England qualified and O'Connor had never played for
Ireland before coming to Wasps, as Reddan hasn't.

Who relies more on renting foreigners?

Nonetheless, it's pretty pointless to count Shanklin as a foreigner
using your logic, despite him being born in Harrow. And I still can't
see Hoadley as having ever played for Ireland - he has only played
England age group as far as I can tell.

Your qualification of a foreigner for the purposes of this debate or
otherwise is pretty pointless. If Shanklin has two Welsh parents he's
effectively dual nationality and can be Welsh regardless of where he
was born or English if he chooses to be.

And if Wasps, for example have an English youngster with a Scottish
grandparent who decides he's got a better chance of playing
internationals for, eg, Scotland, good luck to him, but you can hardly
accuse Wasps of "renting" foreigners.
Martyn Winters
2005-10-17 18:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
<snip>
Post by Martyn Winters
An aside, as you well know. The main thrust of my argument was as I
pointed out earlier. Anyway, I proved my point vis a vis Wasps.
Not really. From the Cardiff website, 9 players were born outside Wales
- Dewdney, Lomu, Stcherbina, Warren, Baugh, Schubert, Molitika, Rush,
Shanklin.
Lomu has yet to join Cardiff - he joins in 2 months and then only for 7
months. Baugh retired last season. I make that 7.
Post by Ben L
Wasps currently have 8 - Ibanez, Bracken, O'Connor, Reddan, Van Eyk,
Staunton, Van Gisbergen, Abbott.
Still not the point. You have to take a longer view to establish a trend
- one year is entirely insufficient. Even if Wasps had more or less the
same number of current "foreigners" as Cardiff Blues it would still
prove my point that Cardiff are no more reliant on foreigners than
anyone else. This is particularly true if you're holding up Wasps as the
pinnacle of unsullied English purity.
mark foster
2005-10-18 08:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martyn Winters
Still not the point. You have to take a longer view to establish a trend
- one year is entirely insufficient. Even if Wasps had more or less the
same number of current "foreigners" as Cardiff Blues it would still
prove my point that Cardiff are no more reliant on foreigners than
anyone else. This is particularly true if you're holding up Wasps as the
pinnacle of unsullied English purity.
yes but Cardiff have been rubbish for years now. Is the fact that a large
number of Welsh internationals are playing for a poor team that struggles in
every competition they've been in, really a good thing? As far as I can tell
from your argument you'd prefer to watch an unsuccessful team with no
overseas players, than one of the best teams in Europe with quite a few
overseas players?
Martyn Winters
2005-10-22 08:12:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by mark foster
Post by Martyn Winters
Still not the point. You have to take a longer view to establish a trend
- one year is entirely insufficient. Even if Wasps had more or less the
same number of current "foreigners" as Cardiff Blues it would still
prove my point that Cardiff are no more reliant on foreigners than
anyone else. This is particularly true if you're holding up Wasps as the
pinnacle of unsullied English purity.
yes but Cardiff have been rubbish for years now. Is the fact that a large
number of Welsh internationals are playing for a poor team that struggles in
every competition they've been in, really a good thing? As far as I can tell
from your argument you'd prefer to watch an unsuccessful team with no
overseas players, than one of the best teams in Europe with quite a few
overseas players?
No, you are misinterpreting my argument. I've said consistently that
there is nothing wrong with having imports. My argument is that Cardiff
are no worse than anyone else, but remain a crap side largely because
they have a poor coaching team.

MW
Ben L
2005-10-18 14:43:10 UTC
Permalink
Martyn Winters wrote:
<snip>
Post by Martyn Winters
Lomu has yet to join Cardiff - he joins in 2 months and then only for 7
months.
A better definition of "renting" you can't find.
Post by Martyn Winters
Baugh retired last season. I make that 7.
Sure. By using a tortuous explanation in which Wasps' two foreign born
England players are foreigners and not including a guy who is all but
in the squad you get to the answer you want.
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Wasps currently have 8 - Ibanez, Bracken, O'Connor, Reddan, Van Eyk,
Staunton, Van Gisbergen, Abbott.
Still not the point. You have to take a longer view to establish a trend
- one year is entirely insufficient. Even if Wasps had more or less the
same number of current "foreigners" as Cardiff Blues it would still
prove my point that Cardiff are no more reliant on foreigners than
anyone else.
You actually said "They certainly don't "rent" as many foreigners as
Wasps", a point which is proveably untrue.

Given that half of the Wasps crop of foreigners are also composed of
several long term development prospects who will subsequently England
qualify, you are doubly wrong in terms of how those foreign players are
actually composed.

By definition, players like Abbott and Van Gisbergen aren't "rented" in
the same way that a former international like Lomu or, for Wasps,
Ibanez is. Unless you are making some trivially basic point that all
professional players are "rented".

This is particularly true if you're holding up Wasps as the
Post by Martyn Winters
pinnacle of unsullied English purity.
Which nobody is, of course - you were trying to make the point that
Cardiff are some bastion of Welshness. Although it is notable that you
never did explain how Wasps' reliance on foreigners translated into
having only one from fifteen playing in the last premiership final.
Martyn Winters
2005-10-22 08:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben L
<snip>
Post by Martyn Winters
Lomu has yet to join Cardiff - he joins in 2 months and then only for 7
months.
A better definition of "renting" you can't find.
Post by Martyn Winters
Baugh retired last season. I make that 7.
Sure. By using a tortuous explanation in which Wasps' two foreign born
England players are foreigners and not including a guy who is all but
in the squad you get to the answer you want.
Post by Martyn Winters
Post by Ben L
Wasps currently have 8 - Ibanez, Bracken, O'Connor, Reddan, Van Eyk,
Staunton, Van Gisbergen, Abbott.
Still not the point. You have to take a longer view to establish a trend
- one year is entirely insufficient. Even if Wasps had more or less the
same number of current "foreigners" as Cardiff Blues it would still
prove my point that Cardiff are no more reliant on foreigners than
anyone else.
You actually said "They certainly don't "rent" as many foreigners as
Wasps", a point which is proveably untrue.
Well 7 is less than 8, but I also said that we have to look at trends
over a number of seasons, and it is true to say that Wasps have hired a
good many more imports than Cardiff over a five year period.
Post by Ben L
Which nobody is, of course - you were trying to make the point that
Cardiff are some bastion of Welshness. Although it is notable that you
never did explain how Wasps' reliance on foreigners translated into
having only one from fifteen playing in the last premiership final.
Not true. Cardiff are a cosmopolitan side in one of the most
cosmopolitan cities in Europe. Defining trends from one match is no more
valid than defining them from one season. If in five years time Wasps
have consistently remained an "English" side, then I'll agree they have
changed, but the past five years have proved otherwise.

John Hill
2005-10-12 07:38:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 20:02:55 GMT, Martyn Winters
Post by Martyn Winters
eing an ignoramus is far worse, coach.
Colin Allen -
Ian Jones
Trevor Leota
Kenny Logan
Peter Bracken
Rob Hoadley
Raphael Ibanez
Johnny O'Connor
Eoin Reddan
Jeremy Staunton
David Van Eyk
Mark Van Gisbergen (they still got him from another country)
Matt Priscott
Rob Howley
Thom Evans
Craig Dowd
Stuart Abbott (oh yes he is... he's a Jarpie)
Harvey Biljon
Dafydd Lewis
Darren Molloy
Apart from that lot, if you took Millfield School out of the equation,
they'd be totally screwed. So, if they're not foreigners they're bloody
public schoolboys. Jeez.
How many are current players ? Wasps and Leicester field England
qualified sides

JH
Post by Martyn Winters
--
littlewales
2005-10-12 10:56:52 UTC
Permalink
" As for the Ospreys, the only reason they don't "rent" loads o
foreigner
is they are made up of two teams, plus the choice pick of the Financia
Failures, err sorry, the Warriors.

Uuum, thats not strictly true. We have Karauna, Cashmore, Terblanch
and Spice now who are Non - WQ players. The Arselets took the **** an
now everyone is catching up. If we arent careful we will go the sam
way as the Saes. We already have much overrated foreign tatt here suc
as Mike Hercus

However, the Blues are looking a lot more promising this year and wit
the squad u have, u should be. about time. I think Lomu will turn ou
to be a cracking signing for u as well

--
Lewis
Martyn Winters
2005-10-12 21:17:13 UTC
Permalink
Uuum, thats not strictly true. We have Karauna, Cashmore, Terblanche
and Spice now who are Non - WQ players. The Arselets took the **** and
now everyone is catching up. If we arent careful we will go the same
way as the Saes. We already have much overrated foreign tatt here such
as Mike Hercus.
Good point, in more ways than one. Why do we persist in paying good
money for dreck like Hercus FFS? The Stradey management must have had
serious brain fade when they took him on. Mind you, I see they let a
Tongan go today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/4329992.stm
Martyn Winters
2005-10-12 13:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Hill
How many are current players ? Wasps and Leicester field England
qualified sides
It doesn't matter. My assertion was that Cardiff don't have a track
record of "renting" to use the words of MNB, as many foreign players as
other clubs. You can't take one season in isolation, it's not
indicative of a trend, so I took the last three. I'm sure if we went
back further we'd find a lot more.

Most clubs have foreign players and I don't see anything wrong with it
- they help develop different ideas on how to play the game. Admittedly
there are more in the GP than the CL, and that's because there's more
money swilling around in England, but I don't see it as a problem. I
don't think it's justified having a go at Cardiff because they've
signed an aging All Black to put a few numbers on the gate.
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